Coach Gajewski shares insights on Gukesh's World Championship victory
Gukesh made history by becoming the World Chess Champion at the age of 18 years. Grzegorz Gajewski is the man behind India's youngest chess champion who has been training Gukesh for the past two years. In this in-depth interview with Sagar Shah, Gajewski reveals the story behind forming Team Gukesh - how every member was carefully chosen, the strategies they employed, and their collaborative effort that led to this historic win. He also sheds light on Gukesh's mental resilience, crucial role played by his parents and an insightful analysis of the games. Read the article to know what Gukesh's coach had to say about their World Championship journey. Photo: Anastasiya Balakhontseva
A fully deserved victory
It was the last game of the World Chess Championship 2024. Fans were hoping for a result before the tie-breaks. The game almost confirmed a draw as the position was balanced. Even Anand himself said,"It's probably just a draw. Even with all the best hope in the world, I don't think there is a winning shot. But having said that, you never know until you try." Despite the equal position, Gukesh decided to keep playing! He did not want to miss any potential mistake from Ding. Surprisingly, his decision paid off when Ding actually made a huge blunder. While everyone expected a draw, Gukesh's hope led to his well-deserved victory!
After this stunning victory, we needed someone close to Gukesh to share their invaluable insights into this journey. And who better than Gajewski, Gukesh's head coach for the past two years? Check out his interview with Sagar Shah, where he delves into the strategies, preparation, and mental resilience that led to this well-deserved World Championship win.
Full transcript of the interview
Sagar Shah (SS): Hello Gajewski! All the action is over, almost a day has passed by. What a monumental feat! For you, as the head trainer, for Gukesh, as the World Champion and for every Indian… we are all elated!
Grzegorz Gajewski (GG): I think I am still slowly realizing what happened and getting to know the new situation and finding myself in it. Obviously, it feels amazing! I am super happy that I got to be a part of it. He is a wonderful kid and fully deserves it.
SS: We met at Toronto after he won it and we did a short interview there. You spoke about how this win was actually very important for him, very big. But already, I am sure you were thinking about the match back then. And as we got to know, a very interesting team developed. Some were already part of the team back in the Candidates, some new ones. Could you take us through a bit of the process of building the team? Because I believe you must have played a key role there.
GG: Yeah, sure. First of all, we didn't have much time to build a team because Gukesh actually got to the Candidates tournament pretty late. And we thought it was a good idea to get some help for the preparations for the tournament because it's a big tournament, lot of work to be done, and he was also playing tournaments in the meantime. Obviously, Radek (Radoslaw Wojtaszek) was like an easy choice for me because we have been working for so many years before. Someimes when you want a new player in the team, you know he is a good player and you know that he came up with many interesting ideas, but you don't know the way he works and you don't know how he is going to behave in a team. Whereas here, I pretty much knew everything. I knew what to expect. So, it’s just a value. So, I knew there would be no surprises from Radek. That was really nice because we could start with an easy choice.
SS: You actually worked with him in Team Vishy also.
GG: Yeah, we worked even before Team Vishy. I used to be his second. He was the first player I worked with, and then I worked for. And then, it's funny because Vishy asked me to join the team partially because he knew my work too. Because I was helping Radek; he was helping Vishy. So, Vishy also knew what to expect from me. And this time, We asked Radek to join because we knew what to expect from him. It was really nice to have him. And he brought so much experience but also the work ethics and his organization to the team because he is very well-organized. And it’s kind of important because many chess players, including me, think in a chaotic way. You know, why not try h4? Why not try a4? And Radek is someone who actually give it a structure. And that helped us a lot.
And then, it was Hari, which was also a very nice choice because, first of all, Hari’s understanding of the game is world-class level. Everybody knows it. Everybody who discusses chess with him… he just knows where to put the pieces.
SS: He has this human touch.
GG: He has this human touch and also, it’s one of the areas that Gukesh still needs to work on. So, we thought it makes perfect sense to have someone in the team who would be able to help him add this another layer to the game. And so, Hari was just perfect for that role. Another thing- Hari was Indian. Gukesh is Indian. So, it makes sense for him to have an Indian on the team, especially given how many great players you have. And also, it makes him more comfortable with all the new faces to have someone he knows and likes. That also brings us to number three, which is Hari, who is simply a very nice person. So, everybody likes him. And that’s also important. It’s not just an addition because you work together, you spend time together, you want to have a very good atmosphere which means to have a person who will always come up with some nice joke. It’s just very important.
SS: I think when the Olympiad happened, everyone was asked who is the funniest in the team or keeps it lively, and it was Hari. So, Hari and Radek were both part of the Candidates team as well?
GG: If I remember correctly, we had two camps with Radek and Hari before the Candidates. Or we had one camp with Radek and Hari and one camp with just Gukesh, me, and Radek because Hari was not able to come for the second one. And then, for the Candidates tournament itself, we thought it would be good to have some young gun, someone who is both talented and hardworking. Because obviously, the young players are very ambitious, and they want to achieve much. And they just love chess.
SS: They also think differently.
GG: Yeah, they also think slightly differently. So, it’s good to have someone from a younger generation. And then, the idea came to ask Jan Klimkowski to help. He is not so high-rated right now, but he is already a Grandmaster. He is young, he is ambitious, and he had some interesting ideas in openings. And he seemed to understand the game pretty well for his age. So, we thought he would make a lot of sense. And he actually did a lot of great work during the tournament itself, and he was a real help for me.
SS: Because this name, when it was spoken about, everyone was a bit surprised. Even I had not heard of him. So he is very new to this sort of domain, to help and to be a second.
GG: The funny thing is he was actually here during the match because he was playing the Singapore Open. He almost won the tournament. He lost the final round, but he was leading before the last round.
SS: So he is a strong player. But did you know him, or did Radek know him?
GG: I didn’t know him personally, but I knew his games. And I asked a few people, and they all said very good manner about him, like he is really modest, he is really ambitious. So all the boxes were checked. He was just helping during the Candidates.
SS: This was the team before the Candidates. And then I think the new additions were Vincent Keymer and Jan-Krzysztof Duda.
GG: I would like to start with Jan-Krzysztof because I forgot to mention that he was a training partner for Gukesh also before the Candidates. This was like a non-committing part. Jan-Krzysztof is more of a player. If we ask him to play some training games with Gukesh, he would be happy to play because he loves playing and he loves competing. And he also thinks it’s good for him as well. So, at first, I just had to connect them. And later on, they would just exchange some messages and keep playing. And throughout the year, they played, in total, I think, like 300 online Blitz games. So, it’s a lot of experience that Gukesh has gained, especially since Jan is not only a great fighter but also just one of the best players in the world.
SS: He is one of the most tricky players out there. Whenever there is trouble, he wiggles out of it.
GG: Yeah. I worked with him. I mean I joined his team for like a year before the Candidates, and we played some training games. And he could really bring you down to your knees because even when the game was completely winning, it was still not possible to convert it with him. Such a tricky player. And also, especially in the beginning, many times Gukesh would have a very tough time against him. And later on, okay, it got very balanced, I think. But, certainly a very good lesson for Gukesh. Not just to work on the new areas. Because obviously, we would like to play training games in the new areas, new openings, etc. But also to work on this phase of the game because everybody knows that Gukesh has some time management issues or maybe it’s just part of his game. He likes to calculate, he takes time, so he end up in time trouble here and there. So, it would make sense to make sure that he will not collapse in these time scrambles.
SS: Also, it helps in rapid as well, right?
GG: Yeah, obviously. But our focus was not on Rapid or Blitz. In case of tiebreaks, it helps. But it also helps just in time trouble, because obviously, when you have three minutes on the clock and you have to calculate the lines, it’s not possible. So, you have to play more intuitively. It’s a different way of playing, and especially it’s difficult for calculators, and obviously, Gukesh is one. So it’s not easy for him to adjust. But more importantly, when you have three minutes on the clock, it’s a different level of adrenaline. You might feel very good, and you might be able to handle all the adrenaline and pressure during the game, but when you are down to three minutes, many people just collapse because they cannot handle this. Having a lot of experience in Blitz games helps you to kind of live with the fact that you are down on the clock and you don’t have much time to make moves, and you just do this automatically. So, I think it was a good part of the training.
SS: I think Jan-Krzysztof was such a perfect choice for this, when I think about it. Because he has perhaps a lot of skills which Gukesh does not have, and I think he could learn a lot. And also, it’s amazing that he was part of the team.
GG: Yeah, we are very grateful to him! And hopefully, he also enjoyed the experience.
SS: So, Jan-Krzysztof was more of the playing partner?
GG: After the candidates, he came for one of the camps and he also did some work with us. He played some training games with Gukesh, so he was basically part of the team. He wasn’t as strongly involved with the preparations as the rest of the guys, but given the number of games that he played in total, he spent a lot of time with Gukesh. So, we are very grateful to him. And then, of course, we have Vincent.
SS: This was a big surprise to me.
GG: Yeah, but why was it a surprise?
SS: Because he is young, he is ambitious, and sometimes, you know, they don’t want to be part of a team.
GG: So, you are not surprised that we asked him, but you are surprised that he said yes? (Laughs)
SS: I mean, I knew that Vincent and Gukesh are good friends. Let’s say, even if Arjun or Pragg would have been in the team, I would have been surprised. So, it’s the same. Vincent is also very talented and young, and he also wants to reach the Candidates and so on.
GG: But I think it made a lot of sense, both for us and for him. For us, it made a lot of sense, Because, first of all, he is a very nice person. We all like him, which is important. And secondly, he is an outstanding player, which is also important. Fairly, he is a great theoretician, and given his history and Peter Leko, who he has been working with, we know that he knows how to work on openings and that he will come with many interesting ideas, which he did. So, everything worked from our point of view. But I think also from him, it was a good experience. Because I know that he shares the same dreams as Gukesh. And so, for an ambitious player who wants to achieve the highest, it’s not a bad idea to actually see this from the inside - the whole process of preparation, the amount of work you have to do. And just take something for yourself and also learn from the way Gukesh plays, and Gukesh can learn from the way that Vincent plays. So, I think it’s all for the benefit of all of us.
SS: It makes complete sense. I agree that both must have gained from this experience. This is the entire team, right? Of course, there was the mental trainer Paddy, and Vishy was always some sort of a mentor, or you can always go to him if needed.
GG: Well, Vishy, I couldn’t thank him enough because none of this would have happened without him, given how much help he personally gave to Gukesh, and not just Gukesh but also other Indian talents. It’s not just that he managed to find a way to create this whole academy, get help from Sandeep, and he was also personally involved. He was actually doing the lessons himself, spent time himself, and everything he did was just to help boost those Indian talents. That’s kind of amazing on his side. So we are grateful for the opportunities he gave us, because none of that would have happened without him. He was not involved personally in the preparations, although he did spend some time with Gukesh for sure. So, you could say he was not officially involved, but whatever he could do to help, he did. We also consulted him when we had one of the final training camps in Chennai, so we invited him just to come and see some of the ideas and discuss some chess together. So that was really nice.
And then, of course, there was Paddy, who is obviously not a chess player. So, he was kind of in the team, but a bit on the side because he did not really talk together much. He was mostly talking to Gukesh. But I talked to Gukesh many times about what Paddy said and his insights. From the things that I heard about Paddy and the way Gukesh reacted to those words, and from everything that worked, it was obvious that the man has a very positive influence on Gukesh, and that’s very important. Because from the very beginning, we knew that this mental side of the game is super important, especially for such a young player like Gukesh. Because at a young age, confidence is very fragile. You win a game, you feel like the best player in the world, you lose a game, you feel like the worst player in the world because you don’t have a very long history of achievements. So, it’s very easy to damage this confidence. Just one mistake is enough to make you feel like you don’t belong here. This one mistake happened in Game 1, and luckily it didn’t have such an effect on Gukesh. actually, it didn’t have almost any effect on Gukesh. So, this is all thanks to Paddy and the mental work that he did together.
SS: I really like the emphasis you placed on having a set of good people with the right kind of attitude. Not just chess skills, but the right kind of attitude. I also feel like I am trying to build a team at ChessBase India or something, I want the right-minded people to work together because you need teamwork. And I think it’s a similar thing. Here, you are maybe the person who is in charge of it, you want to get everyone together and have this very positive attitude. Otherwise, there can be a lot of fights or ego clashes that can happen.
GG: Especially by definition, chess players are people with egos, right? It’s not that we are selfish or that we think we are better than others, but having an ego is like, you need one, right? Because you are competing with others, and you want to prove that you are better than them, and they want to prove that they are better than you. So, these ego clashes are like something common. But at the same time, in the team, you don’t want any of that, and you just want everybody to understand that it’s kind of a game of chess itself, and we are all just pieces in a bigger game.
SS: Brilliant! When I spoke with Peter Heine Nielsen after Magnus won in 2021, he mentioned that he was the only one in Dubai and the rest of the team was in Thailand. That worked really well because when he played, they would sleep, and when they would wake up, Magnus was sleeping, and so on. And I think here, you had a similar setup. You were here, and the rest of the team was in Spain. Although the time zone, when I thought about it, was not like when Gukesh was playing, and they could sleep, and so on. It wasn’t that huge of a difference.
GG: But it was huge enough. So, the 7-hour difference was actually quite convenient. Because when they finished their work, I was waking up, more or less. So, I had time to go through the work and also discuss a few things, because there was always someone there to make changes if necessary. Then, once the game started, they would wake up, so we could discuss the next one. So, 7 hours was okay. We can argue whether 10 would be better, but it was good enough, definitely. And also, Spain is a perfect place to spend time in November and December because, instead of experiencing typical Central European weather - snow, rain, snow, rain, snow, rain; you can experience sun and 20°, which is kind of perfect.
SS: Amazing! Maybe we can go to a bit of chess and just know the ideas because, before the match, it wasn’t as drastic as perhaps what Vishy thought in his match with Kramnik, like “Okay, I am a 1.e4 player, I go with 1.d4.” I think modern chess is more about having ideas everywhere. I think that is what the team did unbelievably. Every game, you guys came up with some idea.
GG: Yeah. I actually think that some mistakes were made, and I think it's a good thing that there were. And it’s not a good thing that there were mistakes, but if there were mistakes, I think it’s important to find them. One of the mistakes was that, from the very beginning, I was saying out loud and I was not the only one, that Ding cannot be underestimated. He might be having a tough period, having played many bad tournaments, but you do not become the World Champion accidentally. Even if he is still out of form, he will give his very best, and for the most important event, he will fight like crazy, which he did.
So, I knew that, but at the same time, I think we kind of underestimated his preparation. We didn’t underestimate it, but we weren’t expecting that he would be so mobile. He has a reputation as a player who stays in his own area, and he has been doing this his whole life. True that he was a bit more mobile during his match with Nepo, but we thought, “Okay, he was doing it out of despair because he could not handle this 40 moves long preparations.” You know, all these stories about how strong Nepo’s computer was and how difficult it was to fight it, and then Nepo would come and just Blitz out the opening and keep playing computer’s moves for so long. It was clear that Ding was suffering. And it was also clear that Gukesh should not play like that because our prep is kind of different. So, we thought he wouldn’t mind just playing his normal Ruy Lopez and his beloved Marshall, and then he just started with the French. That was it! A huge part of the preparation… we could flush down the toilet. I mean, we didn’t know it back then, but that’s the reality.
SS: The French was insane. I thought it was a one-game thing, and he kept playing it.
GG: We knew this was possible, but we also thought, “Okay, you do it once just to start the match with a nice surprise, and then you play your own thing.”
SS: In Game 1 especially, the French would have been a huge surprise. I think that game really set the tone for the match. Before it, everyone was speaking about Gukesh being the favorite, but once this game happened, everyone was like, “Okay, this match is going to be much closer than what everyone’s talking about.” Did it also kind of shake everyone in the team after what happened? Or for you personally, because you were here…
GG: Now that we know he won and it’s safe, I can freely say that it’s good that the warning sign came so early. Because we had a lot of time to adjust. We had a lot of time to understand that it’s not going to be easy. It’s one thing to speak it out loud, and another thing is, there is always this thought in the back of the head, “Okay, maybe he will collapse like he did in previous tournaments, maybe he will just be a shadow of himself.” So, you are not supposed to think it, but I used to kind of hope for it.
SS: But in some ways, he was a bit of a shadow of himself. When he got an advantage, he wasn’t pushing, but when he was pressed, he became like a beast. He wasn’t collapsing.
GG: I think chess-wise, he could be even in just a normal form. For him, the main problem was I think, because of the very bad run, he became very pessimistic about his chances. In many positions, he just mis-evaluated, and this was not because he didn’t understand the positions, but because when you are not in the perfect mental state, you are able to do extraordinary things and convince yourself that you are better when you are really not or that you are worse when you are actually better. And there was at least one case. During the press conference, Ding evaluated a position as slightly worse for him, and Gukesh did the same. We had this funny situation when one guy was slightly better and wanted to make a draw and the one was slightly worse and wanted to win. This was the main problem for Ding. Because he was playing super-strong chess and many guys were saying this match is not of a high quality because there are many missed chances, etc. Later on, we had seen the stats and the level of accuracy was very high. And one of the reasons for this missed chances was simply because Ding was putting such a high level of defence. His defensive skills were just incredible. Gukesh admitted himself that he had never faced this level of defense day after day. I still believe that Ding gets back to his normal state, gains back his confidence. He can be as dangerous as we know he can be.
SS: And also, it feels like, from whatever I was seeing back home, that this World Championship, the fact that he lost; he looks a bit more relaxed now. Maybe he can come back into his old self.
GG: Yeah, he could finally just do what he loves without any pressure. It’s not a coincidence that he just played bughouse after that, right? He can finally do what he loves and not be bothered about the rest. But okay, like it’s obvious that he has to find a way to deal with those things because it’s difficult to compete and not compete at the same time.
SS: I think Ding was not showing much with the white pieces, and that was clear in Game 2 as well. He just played very safe Nc3. And perhaps it was nothing. He played very fast, but Gukesh just equalized.
GG: But I would not fully agree. In a sense, it’s a very quiet line. It’s a very safe line for White, but at the same time, the idea that he played was quite unpleasant to face over the board. We could say that the position was just equal, but at the same time, you could say that the position was just slightly better for White because the pawn structure favors White slightly. And if their approach to Gukesh was like, “Okay, he is a very good calculator, he is a very good aggressive player, but maybe he doesn’t feel the nuances so well and he gets slightly irritated in those boring positions, which he did just before the match by losing a stupid game to Andreikin in the European Club Cup.
There was just this quiet position. It was clear that Gukesh was just annoyed that his opponent would do that with White pieces. So their approach was just to get something quiet, something ideally boring, and hoping that Ding would feel the nuances more than Gukesh. It made perfect sense. Obviously, Gukesh did not get annoyed or anything like that because it’s the World Championship match. So you are not allowed to get annoyed by your opponent’s choice. You just do your best. He kind of defended well in this game, and he solved all his problems. Also one thing - it’s all not fully Ding’s chess, to do these kinds of quiet, boring things. Because if you face Magnus and Magnus does that, then you say, “It’s typical Magnus, what an irritating preparation,” and you can easily get into trouble. So their approach was reasonable in a sense. It could be unpleasant for Gukesh, but I think at the same time, it was kind of unpleasant for Ding. The same story happened a couple of days later - when we tried this Exchange French against Ding. It was kind of the same.
SS: This was a very interesting choice, you brought this up. This was Game 5 and Gukesh played e4. I think at some level, you would also think, “No, he might not go back to the French. It was just a one-game thing.”
GG: So the first thing, we showed some tricks in d4 and we thought, “Okay, we want to come back to e4. We don’t know whether this was a one-time thing or not.” At the same time, Gukesh lost the first game badly. And the French - you can come up with all kinds of improvements, and it’s not a very difficult thing to find a playable novelty in the French. The theory is not a problem here; the structure is. Because you don’t face this structure often. You don’t face this structure in other openings. Say, you can easily start playing the Ruy Lopez with black pieces because you have some experience in the King’s Indian Defense, and surprisingly often these structures are similar to each other. Or, just stop playing the Lopez and start playing the Najdorf. There is so much resemblance, and nothing reminds you of the French. The French is just the French. It’s different. And for Gukesh, who historically has been mainly a d4 player, it’s just a difficult experience to face this French against a very strong opponent who obviously feels the French. So we were not afraid that he would counter-surprise us in the opening or out-prepare us or anything like that. We knew that, we had ideas and we could just challenge the French. But the thing is, this is such a tricky structure, and he has already lost badly in the first game. It’s just a scary area to enter. So do we actually need this kind of pressure, where we don’t really know if he is going to play the opening at all, right?
At the same time, we thought it makes sense to aim for a long game - to play the long game and just to play for exhaustion. Because we knew that the physical advantage was on Gukesh’s side, and it made sense to play every game for as long as possible which is, by the way, the main reason why he kept playing every game, apart from the fact that being super ambitious is a part of his DNA. So we thought, “Okay, if he does play the French, we have some small ideas in the Exchange and then we can play this long game and just play this forever.” Kind of same approach that Ding tried on Gukesh in Game 2 I think. And the same problem happened in that game that objectively it was not challenging enough, right? We should also add that Ding was just well-prepared, and he anticipated this line in his preparation.
SS: I think once he played Nh5, he had solved most of his problems here, no?
GG: Yeah. The only chance was to go Nh4 after Nbd7 which was by the way our preparation. But Gukesh forgot that one. How to blame him, given how many lines he had to learn?
g6 g3 Ng2 to Ne3. Basically the same idea more or less happened with Nh5. So it's almost a symmetry after all. Of course, if you turn on the engines, you quickly realize it's nothing. But visually, there is some kind of a pressure and it's something you can build on.
SS: Amazing! I think Game 3 must have been the most pleasant one. Because in such matches if you don't equalize quickly, it can get very stressful. So to get that point back was really cool and to play 4.cxd5 was quite a surprise to me.
GG: But it's not actually such a surprise. I was actually surprised that he was so surprised. Because everybody who tries analyzing chess deeply understands that the Semi-Tarrasch is such a blocker that you don't want to have it on the board in the World Championship match. Obviously we are not afraid of it in tournaments as nobody wants to play it really. We could play it, we could come to the Tata Steel and play 7 Semi-Tarrasch’s with black and enjoy seven draws. But how do you make progress with that in the long run right? But in the match, it is a problem. One of the reasons why Magnus did not enjoy the experience at least at the very end of it was the Semi-Tarrasch itself. After d4 because the guy will just come and play c5 and just bang 20 moves short preparation and the position is so dry that no matter how good you are, your opponent will not have too much problems making a draw. It's a bit sad because your options are very limited with White. But cxd5 is one of these options.
SS: I think that's what Magnus also mentioned in his recap that looks like the natural territory now for Black. I think the main point was that there were many ways, this was Kramnik-Arjun game that happened. But Ding found Rg8 on the board and he used to go in these long thinks in the opening and I was commentating and I was like now it's time for half an hour - Ding thing you know. He would think for so long. What was your impression of that? Because when it came to middle game around move 15 to 30, he would start making it so quickly and accurately. Why was he thinking so much?
GG: If you could only record the thinking process of all the players and we discussed it many times like obviously Ding calculates deeply and he goes very deeply, even during the press conference when he later on explained his mistakes, he would be giving the correct lines and then give small misevaluations at the very end of those lines. Like he knew what he was supposed to be doing, but somehow he misevaluated the outcome of it. Hence it led to some mistakes later on. We discussed it many times how is it possible that Magnus can play so accurately without actually calculating so deeply. One of the theories is that he actually spends time on evaluating the position. He calculates a little bit but he actually spends time on evaluation which is not obvious. Mostly we just calculate and if I do this, he does that, I am better. But sometimes you say better and actually you are not. Because it actually takes time to understand not just the initial position, but also the final position of the analysis that you are going through. Perhaps Ding was trying that. Perhaps he was just calculating so many lines and grasping all the nuances of the position. But I think it's understandable to spend a lot of time after the opening, because you have to make moves.
SS: Interesting! I think Game 4 was nothing much, it was very quick draw. Ba3 was perhaps a small idea but Gukesh was even pretty decently prepared there. He knew this, I think there was Anish Giri game here and he just equalized quite well. I think this was a very nice game.
GG: Yeah. Actually some of the lines he not only grasp the nuances of the position, but he actually went deep with some explanations. Why Ne5 was more accurate than Re8 or Qe7. So he actually knew all the things about. Actually he solved that one pretty well.
SS: When we went into Game 6, I think Ding's weapon which also was Game 6 in his match with Nepo. He was like let me go for the London system. And Gukesh’s response to London was the same like Bd6. It's not very ambitious way to play with Qb6 lines and stuff, but very solid.
GG: I don't really know what we are going to play, right? It's solid mostly. But yeah, there is a charm to it. Especially if White gets ambitious, it could backfire potentially. But mainly, it's something that he hasn't really played before that. He did play Bd6 against Alireza but we thought Nc6 Bg4 or Bf5 would be to be expected. So we thought maybe this made some sense. Also playing Black in the World Championship Match, it's fine to be solid.
SS: By the way very nice prep by him. He was well prepared till Rb8 which is not easy to remember everything and to be prepared. But rejecting the three-fold repetition is I think a huge moment of the match. Because to just make this statement, like we were ready to close the commentary and stuff and he plays Qh4. What was your reaction?
GG: Initially, I was mad. I was going mad like what are you doing man? You cannot win this. But now that I see the position without engine, it just looks unclear. Three pawns here, four pawns there. For practical point of view, the evaluation is not that important. Obviously White should be safe, it's not like Black can win anything. ButI really like the mental side of it. Because in the long run, you are setting up the discourse. After a while, Ding kind of agreed with it. He stopped fighting it. So the status quo was “I am playing for the win and you are trying to survive.” That was nice, because it's so much easier when you both come into the game and one guy wants to beat you and the other one wants to survive. It's not like Ding just wanted to survive; he wanted to win. But you know he faced so much pressure and so much ambition on the other side that it's very difficult to play when you know your opponent wants to beat you no matter the position. Even when you are slightly better, he still wants to beat you. He is still not fine with a draw. It's not something that you are used to. So objectively we can criticize the move and say that it was a risk for nothing. But also remembering that part of the strategy was to exhaust him. It makes some nice sense.
SS: Like for example, Vladimir Kramnik was very upset after this and he was like this is not very accurate. But perhaps, this is not the chess decision. It is also more than over the board decision.
GG: It's like an intuitive choice where you just want to keep the game going. Obviously it's a very risky strategy, because you have to assess correctly when are you actually at risk and when you are not. For many people, it would seem like a very risky choice for Gukesh. But he is not actually in that much of a risk. Maybe he was objectively not right or not fully right, but it's also a good sign like to be so confident.
SS: The best novelty I would give to Game 7. I think it's the move of the match- Re1! Would you agree?
GG: Yeah definitely! It's a very nice idea.
SS: It also kind of makes Ding to fight! It's like take dxc4 or else there is not much. There is Bf5 or Nd7.
GG: Yeah you can go Bf5, Bg4, a5, you can make actually many logical moves but Ding’s nature is to force things. He likes forcing things. He also likes fighting Chess. So even if your approach is very solid, you are playing a black game. You just need to play solid chess. But then the position happens over the board and you start thinking and your first instinct is just take the pawn, chase the pawn, take the pawn, fight the centre. This is how you play chess. It's not like you want to fight. It's not like you want to create chaos. But simply your nature tells you that this is the move.
SS: And he was fighting it for a long time. Should I do it or not; but then he did it. Re1 was maybe an idea by Vincent?
GG: Yeah. That was totally Vincent.
SS: Amazing! I think Gukesh gained an amazing position. He played a phenomenal game until perhaps the moment where he was a bit criticized for playing Ke1 instead of let's say h4 or something of that sort. But what was the feeling for you, because I guess this was a missed opportunity in the match?
GG: For sure. A missed opportunity and something that does not normally happen to Gukesh. With this amount of pressure, I think we can understand that. Simply it's not something that you experience every day. For instance, what happened to Fabiano in the Candidates tournament when he lost his focus on move 41. Everybody knows you are not allowed to lose your focus on move 41, right after the time trouble. But with so much pressure and so much adrenaline and then the time trouble comes. It's like a peak of adrenaline and you feel like you are going to explode and you have to maintain the composure and stay focused and make the best moves and you finally make it to go for the time trouble. I imagine the similar feeling even bigger because it's not the Candidates but it's already the match. When Gukesh has to fight, he has to outplay the opponent. Also Ding was in severe time trouble and then finally you know you are getting a winning position. You know you cannot do this but things happen. And because Gukesh has his own style which heavily relies on calculation. He sometimes makes the moves that people would say, “How can you move the king in the center?” He calculates the lines and everything works, so why wouldn't he? Here the problem is he lost his focus, he missed some counter moves.
SS: Also Ding's defense was fantastic! Him finding f6, he was almost going to give up and then plays f6 with 5 minutes left. You are like he will collapse but he did not.
GG: Yeah. It's one of the reasons why the match was so interesting. Because the will on the Ding’s side to keep fighting, to keep defending… that was just something incredible!
SS: In Game 8, one novelty in White backed with another beautiful idea with Black f6 is very cool.
GG: Yeah. I like the concept. I like that you swapped the dark square bishop and then you put all the pawns possible on the dark squares and then you also fight for the center. So it makes perfect sense. It's like you are not creating any direct pressure but White has to play a slightly offbeat pawn structure which means it's slightly challenging to find the correct plan. It takes time and it's easier to misevaluate things.
SS: I think overall when this b5 move came, it felt like "Wow! This is going to be another…"
GG: I thought it was going to be over soon actually at this point. Because Gukesh was so convincing in this game up to this moment.
SS: I think I got a two contrary opinions after Bd4. Anish was there commentating and he was like Nac5 is natural. Perhaps it was Vishy who said Ndc5 was natural for him somehow. Because the bishop goes back and somehow it defends…
GG: Once again it depends on your definition of natural. Because I could say Nac5 is natural because the knight on the rim is dim. So you want your knight in the center. Why would you leave the knight on a6? But then, you could also say it's obvious that after Nac5 Rc1 will happen and then you bring your Rc8 and there is a possible pin on the h3 c8 diagonal. So what would be the natural thing to do - to leave the knight on d7 and allow all these kinds of tactics. It's basic geometry and both sides are right. Both Nac5 and Ndc5 are natural. It's a player's obligation to calculate these lines correctly. Once again I think it's just a pressure. It's something that Gukesh normally does. It's the feeling that you are winning. I will never blame him for that. Because it's a unique experience. It's the first time you play the match, the first time you get to lead the match, every situation you meet for the first time in your life. So it's not something you can just prepare for; you have to experience it.
SS: Amazing! I think after these two games, did it impact…
GG: If I can stop you I am actually super impressed that he managed to save this game. He even played his own unique thing at the end which is rejecting a draw in objective position. From the practical point of view, it's unclear. We could argue that you shouldn't be at much risk with black but actually unless White blunders, he is at no risk at all.
SS: I was thinking he will even continue, maybe something like Bg6 or something that was playable but maybe even for Gukesh, it was like okay…
GG: But he made him play for one more hour. He was very close to losing this one and he managed to put himself together at some point.
SS: Did Gukesh ever after these two games feel low? I always see him as so optimistic. Even in press conference, he was like “Yeah. I put pressure on him in two games. That's the upside of this.” But did he feel low at any point at all?
GG: Sure. There were doubts and I think the lowest point was after Game 10 when he openly told me that he feels annoyed. He is worried that he might not win this one. Because he realized that his opponent is not giving up. He is fighting very hard. It's just so difficult to win a single game. He also knew that he is not playing his best chess like that he is missing chances which he is not used to. And I was super impressed because it's one thing to experience this feeling and another thing is to be aware that you are experiencing it, to share this. Because we want you to feel better. You wanted some kind of support. He is mature enough to admit it, to say this.
Then we make some adjustments for the rest day. We spent more time together. We went apart from our usual squash thing. We went to the beach. We did a zip thing together which was a lot of fun. We basically made sure that he had a lot of fun during this day which allowed his mind to relax and somehow forget about the match for a couple of hours. Because it just takes too much energy to think about the games all the time; to think not just during the games, but between the games. It's just killing you in the long run. You need some time to reset, to refocus. I think that helped him a lot.
Since Game 11, he was playing in the right mental state which was he knew that he might lose it. First of all, this allowed him to make peace with it. Just focus on chess, just do your best, do not expect that you are going to win, do not get nervous that you are not winning. Even after Game 12 which he lost badly, he came back; he said I am fine. I am confident. I am ready to fight. Because he respected his opponent. When you know that you can lose, it's a different game. Because you are not focusing that much on the outcome. You just do your best; you hope for the best. Whatever happens happens.
SS: This is interesting at so many different levels. Because it's true; when the match started, everyone thought Gukesh will win somehow or the other. I am sure maybe somewhere it also seeped into his mind. But after 10 games, to feel it, to share it, at the same time having that comfort in the team to share, because when you say this, you can also be worried - Everyone has been working for so long. If I say this, what will they think. I should be strong. I think it's also a testament to the relationship and bond that you both share that he could speak about this and you took it in the right spirit.
GG: Yeah, obviously for a coach, it's flattering that a player is ready to share such things with you. But I am mostly impressed with him that he is actually this mature. His level of self-awareness of all these things is incredible.
SS: Game 9 was a bit of you could say ‘One Gukesh game’ where he didn't get much with white or I don't know if you felt it similarly. But it was not much that he got an advantage or anything.
GG: Yeah. The approach was to get something more positional, something quiet for a long game. Once again Catalan just fit the pattern. Obviously the problem was that Ding has so much experience with the Catalan with both colors and also Bb4 Be7 is his beloved line. He actually is one of the greatest experts in it. So it was difficult to head him in the opening.
So even though Bc3 Nbd2 setup came as a surprise to him, he still reacted in a very reasonable and accurate way like Qc7 Rc8 or Rd8 is one of the best possible replies to this setup. So opening wise we didn't get much. But I still think that the nature of the position was kind of reasonable for us. Obviously had Ding played more accurately at some point, it would just fizzle out instantly. But it's not so easy to make all the perfect moves.
After Ra6, it's kind of a pity. Ne5 Qb3 and you have this long-term small plus, you know you are better on time. You can actually hope for something here. But once again, the problem I think was a slight impatience on Gukesh’s side. He calculated some lines. Okay, you need a lot of ability to restrain yourself.
SS: Game 10 was London but it transposed into a Queen's Gambit Decline. Nothing much happened there in fact. But it became a very key game from what you said that Gukesh actually shared he was not feeling great.
GG: It's not like he felt it because of this game. Actually this game was fine. Actually I was very happy with this game, because it's almost identical structure to what he got in his Andreikin game. He also had this pawn structure on the king side and the whole game he misplayed so badly. He just made all the right moves and made a draw. Objectively this is not kind of a game you hoping for. But okay, it's part of the job.
SS: And the best game perhaps, the most exciting one was Game 11 where once again the move a3 really made Ding think long. In fact he thought a lot for Nf6 itself but an hour almost after this move.
GG: We thought it would be a very nice surprise, because first of all, if you don't expect the line, it's a difficult choice. Actually he played d4 quickly.
SS: d4 was actually bit surprising no? Because if you want to play solidly, you go e6 or c6.
GG: He has so much experience after e6 g3 with white color that we thought he might just make this choice intuitively. Maybe once again his instinct prevailed. So he just pushed the pawn and after e3, you have to spend some time trying to remember the lines. After Nf6, you need to spend time memorizing these lines. You know all the nuances. Then you have this challenging thought - What if there is something I did not anticipate, if there is a new move. It takes time. It takes energy. Then you finally think there is nothing better. I know what to do. I just go Nf6 and then the guy immediately plays a3. Once again you have to start thinking from the scratch. Because it's not something you can anticipate.
SS: But I was so amazed with Qc7 by Ding. It makes a lot of sense because you want to put the knight on d7 but then Gukesh instantly played d3 and I think you must have been quite tensed.
GG: Actually it was an interesting concept as Bg4 because in normal Blumenfeld, when you just want to play it safe with white, go Bg5. So it was not such a bad choice. Initially we were kind of angry with ourselves that we did not anticipate it fully. But then we thought with this kind of move like a3, Black has eight reasonable replies. After each one of these replies, he has eight more replies and so two moves later, you have 8 multiplied by 8, 8 multiplied by 8, it's just not mathematically possible to anticipate everything. It’s a downside of our approach. We just want to get a game. That's the problem. You know everybody was thinking what is Ding doing every game, thinking for 40 minutes before making the move. It was actually Gukesh’s place to stop for 40 minutes and get deeply into the position. He rushed it with this one move and the position is nuanced enough, it's already unpleasant.
SS: g3 was a key move. If he didn't play it, he would have been in trouble. He managed this very well. Rd1 perhaps not the most accurate move but just a human move and Ding faltered with g6. If he had played e6, perhaps we never know what could have happened. Gukesh’s move that drew a lot of praise, at least I loved it was this Na1. I think it made Ding stop instead of Rdb1. He spent seven out of his fourteen or some minutes he had left.
GG: It's a very nice idea. It kind of sums up really nicely the way Gukesh play. Because he does not always makes objectively best choices but his choices are always challenging to the opponent. His opponents have to solve and face challenges one after another. We are human. Sooner or later, the challenge come and we fail to solve it. That's how he beats you.
SS: Absolutely! After Qc6, we saw Gukesh doing what he did with Wei Yi and you knew that he this win meant a lot for him. But Ding instantly struck back and I think in Game 12, the opening went a bit wrong. Many people were very critical of what Gukesh was actually doing here, by taking, playing e5 very concretely, but then suddenly playing it not very concretely with h6.
GG: Okay. h6 was not very accurate. But it was in general part of the plan to cover the square. Because then you can always go Be6 without worrying. Obviously you can also go Be6 Ng5 then you have Bg4. So maybe just wait for h3 first. But it's not like a bad or unreasonable move.
I think the first and the main problem came a bit later after Kh2. Because Black's position is actually fairly okay. You just have to move the queen to d7, bring the rooks to the center and White has a weakness on d3. Black has a weakness on e5. There are d5 d4 squares. Maybe it's a bit easier to play with white but I don't see much of a problem with black. I think the main problem is, it's not the very usual structure. It’s a bit different. If you don't spend enough time in this position with black, you might feel uncomfortable. Also for Gukesh, the problem was, when I see this position, I want to go Nd7 Bc5, swap the dark square bishops and ideally take away the black square bishop for a moment. Bring the knight to e6, then go Nd4 then put the bishop back on e6 and then I love Black's position. It's something you can never achieve in this position. So the first thing you should do is just bring the pieces to the center.
Then quite often there is this nice idea to go Qd7 to c8. Hide the queen from any potential action on the d-file and then it's very difficult to make any progress with white. He has to keep considering e5 d4, just clearing out the situation in the center. It's a fine position for Black but you really need to understand and Gukesh did not grasp the nuances. Once again I am fine with it because you can't have it all. Everyone is happy that Gukesh keeps surprising his opponents in every game and that it's so difficult to surprise him. But the price for it is something, sometimes he will play something and it’s not something we were expecting to happen over the board. We knew this was a possibility but still not the main thing we expected.
After Rad1, it's still not that bad, Qc8 perhaps or just retreat the bishop or Qd7 Rbd8, just accepting that you lost some time and then hide the queen from d4. But his Instinct was still to go Nd7 to improve the position of the knight. But actually the knight was very important on f6, covering the d5 square. But it's something you can easily misevaluate over the board. It didn't work out.
SS: And Ding played very well actually in this entire game. He was in his element.
GG: That day he was just outstanding.
SS: He was just finding alll the right moves Qc3 Ne2 Nf4. He played brilliantly! That really equalized the match. At that point, it could have gone anywhere, but the 13th game which was actually clear that Gukesh was going to press because he had white. How difficult was this decision to go e4 once again?
GG: It was not that difficult because it's been more than two weeks since the Game 1. At this moment, we could easily just say that the first game had nothing to do with the opening. You were just very ambitious, over aggressive. You missed some opportunities for your opponent. You got punished for it. But it had nothing to do with the opening. It is one area that we can actually challenge. So why not?
SS: Actually you did challenge it very well with the move Be3. I think it put a lot of pressure on Ding.
GG: It was a very nice prep I think. Objectively after a3, black has 12 replies, not right away but he can do Be7 f6, he can start with a5 and then do all these things like almost anything works technically. But everywhere there is some sort of a challenge like you want to go f6 but immediately Nf4 comes and do you allow f5 and Nd6. Is this fine or is this loss - you have to calculate all these things. Obviously you don't want to do this against a well prepared opponent because it's just hard.
SS: But Gukesh played phenomenally well in Game 13. I thought Qf3 was a bit surprising but when he played Qe2 with the concept of f3 Ne4, maybe wanting this bishop to go to f2 and g3 and Rd1.
GG: Do you remember his game with Pragg, I think from Prague Masters. He played with black and he got such a horrible position in the Ruy Lopez. Why was his position so horrible? Because Pragg played f3 limiting his light square bishop.
SS: I was actually very surprised in that game for few reasons. Firstly, Pragg giving up his light square bishop and so on.
GG: You can easily find this concept in my Chessable course in the Ruy Lopez part. I actually talked about this f3 idea a couple of times. Because even in open position, the bishop can be horrible. When the light square bishop on b7 is facing the pawn on g2 and f3 and there is not much to be done there. In Ruy Lopez it happened quite frequently. We talked about it with Gukesh a few times and then it happened in the game with Pragg. So we talked about it afterwards. He finally got to use the concept himself.
SS: Beautiful! He was so quick to play the move Bf4. I think he wanted to make a statement. It felt like after Re1, he could have won but he played Qf7 quickly.
GG: I think it's the same category as Nac5 or Ndc5 (in Game 8). Because for a classical thinking player, we think Rxc8 Qe8 Ne4 is my first instinct. Because I want to eliminate the black rook because his back rank is a problem, his seventh rank is a problem. So ideally we want only one rook to be there. It's just an instinct choice. But you could also argue that Ne4 is a more logical move, because with Nd6, you are attacking four pieces instead of two. He calculated all the lines. And then, this Rf8 happens.
SS: Again brilliant defense by Ding like finding the only move.
GG: It's an interesting case because for me, as a coach, it's difficult to say was it a mistake. It’s miscalculation but seeing the line, you think it’s winning. Maybe the mistake was that he played it so quickly that he didn't spend much time, once again I would blame the pressure. Because obviously you are getting excited. So even if you see the line is winning, why don't you spend 20 more minutes? Why don't you lose all of your time? Because if it's correct, it's over, right? You are allowed to do this and quite often he does that. I think it’s because of the pressure. It's the only mistake that I see here. Because chess wise we are not machines. It's just possible to miss and Rf8 is quite an amazing resource.
SS: In the end he played it a lot. I thought Gukesh will agree to a draw but he kept playing another 22 moves. It perhaps tires Ding a bit.
GG: The funny thing is that on the king side black only needs Rg8 and the queen and the other rook can do much. Obviously you will threaten to take on h6. But it's not a sophisticated threat. So it's obvious that black was not at risk but…
SS: It was the strategy. Then finally Game 14. The opening was under some pressure I felt where if Qe2 was played, perhaps it was feeling like is it Game 12 all over again.
GG: I wasn't sure whether he forgot the prep or was it like over the board decision. Instead of Bb6, Black should have opted for e5. Human-wise, it just looks a bit better for white. But actually, you take on d4, you just go Be6 Qd7.
SS: I was so surprised when I saw Nxd4 exd4 Bf4 Bf5 is actually slightly better for Black.
GG: I thought just Be6 is good enough. Maybe Bf5 is also good. He can always go Bd5 but you can always go Be6 back. But my evaluation is that you just develop the pieces to the center and the pawn on d4 is both weakness and strength. It definitely has some potential. White has some kind of a problem with the light squares. Because there is always Bh3. You can go Bh1. You can move the rook on e1. But you can never bring the rook to d1 because of Bg4. Also, the bishop on f4 is not bad but it's like shooting in the dark. It doesn't do much it. It has nowhere else to go. If any kind of g5 happens at any point, you will just have to retreat it to d2 or c1. I am not saying White is at risk but I think Black is more or less comfortable. We had to discuss with Gukesh what happened here. He made this over the board call to go Bb6. If you look at the pawn structure, it makes a lot of sense. But if you look at White's potential initiative, it's actually quite risky. But then again, it's a very challenging move for White. Because if you want to punish Black, you have to be very accurate. You have to go for some kind of a fight…
SS: Which Ding did not. I think we were very quickly heading towards the draw. I like the move b5 a lot.
GG: Yeah. At some point, I think the engine has said after Qd2, Qa5 should be played which doesn't make much sense. Because you are just inviting White to push the pawns on the queenside which is a normal thing to do. But then a3 Be6 b4 Qd8 back and then once b5 happens, this is a real challenge to White's position. Because Nd5 b5 and you feel like White's center might just collapse. So, it's a very interesting concept strategically. It's very easy to miscalculate something and misevaluate it. Because if you don't have this right challenge right away, White can just go a4, b5 at some point, and you just get punished for jumping with the queen in the opening. Obviously, it's very difficult to just come up with it over the board. So it's fairly understandable that Gukesh just went Bb6 and b5 here. I think the concept is very nice.
SS: It's amazing. And I feel you, as a trainer or as a person who is into chess, think a lot more conceptually than concretely; because maybe the engine can do that. But I think you are all the time looking at concepts, some patterns, and so on, which you can actually make into a digestible thing for Gukesh or someone.
GG: I think once, instead of moves, you sell the concepts; it's easier to understand, it's easier to remember and it's easier to use. Because the moves are just moves, and they change all the time. But the concepts are permanent.
SS: Again, I think everyone felt that this will end in a draw. Maybe you also felt it? Were you ready for a tiebreak?
GG: Yeah. I had already started preparing. But one thing I wanted to note: Ding lost this game, at least partially, and because of that, the whole match... I mean, at least partially, the strategy paid off, right? Gukesh wanted to exhaust him. He got exhausted in the end. But also, we kept saying in our conversation with Gukesh was, "Just go there and play chess. Make your best moves. Don't think about anything." And Ding got punished because he wanted to make a draw in this game. I understand that you should not be playing for a win in this position with White. But you should not be playing it for a draw either. You should just make the best moves. If you see there is a way to nail it, you can nail it. But if there is no way to nail it, you just make the best moves. And maybe even a4 was not a bad strategy. But the mindset was problematic. The real problem was Nf4. It's not that the move is bad itself, but it already sends a message, "I want to finish this game. I want to make a draw. I want to play tiebreaks." And you are telling this to the guy who has already told you so many times, "Not that fast. We are going to play." As I said, the discourse was already set up.
SS: I thought Gukesh might change his approach, at least for the last game - Not to fight till the end. Because this game is so important. It can make or break. But he kept his strategy.
GG: In this case, he was not taking any risks, so he was allowed to do that.
SS: Where were you when Rf2 happened?
GG: Around a couple of moves earlier, I had already discussed some ideas for tiebreaks with my team. And then I looked at the clock, and it was close to 9:00 p.m. I thought, "It's a good time to go and have dinner because they will play for half an hour to an hour at best. So if I don’t have my dinner now, I won’t have it at all." So I went downstairs, and then the message came from my fiancée saying, "Oh my God, if he sees this, he is winning." And I am like, "What?" I checked my phone, I saw Rf2 and then I saw this Bd5 idea. I thought Ding was not the first one to lose like that. I have seen this idea of having a fortress and then accidentally allowing your opponent to swap the bishop. I don’t know how to find the game, but it’s not the first time I have seen this. Then I just quickly ran to the playing venue. Then I saw Rajinikanth - he was just shaking his head, checking his phone. He was completely in a trance. I told him, "If he finds it. It’s not over." He says, "It’s over." I say, "It’s not over." He says, "It’s not over?" And then he plays the move. And he says, "You know, it’s not over. Let’s wait. No comment.” And this gets over.
SS: Even Gukesh never emotes. But here he was showing so many expressions. You could see the 10-year-old kid.
GG: Yeah, it’s a very dramatic blunder. Because there is absolutely nothing you can do with White.
SS: And that hug towards the end, to his dad and to you - These are the iconic moments of this entire match.
GG: Yeah. It was so beautiful, so unexpected. And it happened so fast - from the moment you are thinking, “Okay, I need to have my dinner, the tiebreaks are tomorrow,” and in 5 minutes, he is the World Champion. Incredible.
SS: It’s just absolutely incredible. Just this one question: Did you feel like Gukesh was maybe slightly not the favorite if it went to the tiebreaks? Because a lot of people said that. What was your thinking? Of course, you could fight, but objectively…
GG: A lot of people said that Ding was a huge favorite in the match and that he was going to crush Gukesh. So much for the predictions! I think he was not such an underdog. Maybe he was a slight underdog because Ding is a very impressive Rapid and Blitz player. But a couple of things to remember: Gukesh is mainly a classical player, which means when he comes for Rapid and Blitz tournaments, sometimes the struggle for him is to find the right amount of motivation. That would not be an issue here. That also explains why he is doing so much better in tiebreaks in general. Every single tiebreak that he played in Norway, he was a very tough opponent. I think he only lost to Magnus. Even in that game, he actually put a lot of pressure on him. He won tiebreaks against Fabiano and some other tiebreaks as well. So he was actually a very strong opponent for even in this kind of time control. He did play 300 or more online Blitz training games throughout the year. So I think it would actually make a difference.
SS: Gukesh winning this title at 18 - I just can’t wrap my mind around it. When I think of it this way, if you know him long enough, he is improving all the time. But to achieve the World Championship title at 18 is insane. I think even when you began working with him, when he was around 2600 or 2650 perhaps…
GG: No, no. Our first tournament was Tata Steel 2023. I think he was already 2700+ then.
SS: But you would not have imagined the World title so soon.
GG: Yeah. I remember one of the conversations that we had after Norway Chess. He said that he wanted to be in the top 10 till the end of the year, something like that. I told him, “Focus on the process. Don’t make it all about breaking the records, because self-improvement is the most important part,” all these things. And he said, “Yeah, yeah.” Then he became a top 10 player within the next two months. I was like, “Okay!”
SS: In 2017, when this interview of this young kid. He says, “I want to become the youngest World Champion.” I was like I cannot pay attention to this because so many kids say it. But perhaps he believed it back then as well.
GG: I mean, it can’t be more clear than that. It’s like, it’s not enough to be the World Champion. You just have to be the Youngest World Champion. It’s incredible! It’s one thing to have dreams, and the other thing to be ready to fully commit to those dreams. That’s the amazing part!
SS: The commitment that he showed throughout the match was great!
GG: Throughout the match, the whole period of preparation. And not just his commitment. I guess it’s a good moment to mention his parents. His mom is obviously a huge support. But Rajinikanth - I witnessed him so many times. To be able to do so much good for your kid and at the same time, remain invisible almost for most of the time - it’s a rare skill. Also a huge sacrifice, of course, but very hard job! Actually, he is like the number one player in the team.
SS: He told me that everyone had tears in their eyes. I think Gukesh also made me cry; but I was very strong. He was very, very strong there. But do you think that achieving so many things so quickly at 18 - I felt like, “Has it come too quickly?” But Gukesh, after winning the title, says, “I want to play a lot. I want to give my best. I want to keep improving.” And it showed like this is not the end of the road or anything of that sort.
GG: I hope it’s just the beginning of the road. Because there are many more targets and many more challenges to come. And it’s only the first match. The next challenges aren’t going to be any easier. You want to challenge Magnus on the throne of the rating list. You want to resist the challenges from other young players. Because when I think about the next opponent, who will that be? There are no easy names on the list.
SS: It could be like Fabiano or Hikaru, who are like the previous generation. It could also be Arjun, Nodirbek…
GG: Alireza. They are all outstanding and very ambitious players. Looking forward to those!
SS: And you, as a trainer - If you had one next goal for Gukesh, what would that be?
GG: Ideally, no goals in terms of ratings or whatever. But we will try to do some changes in terms of maybe preparation, maybe in terms of the way he plays, mostly allow him to find himself in this new situation. Because at first, he had to adjust to the very high level of his opponents. Everybody wanted to beat him and they beat him. Then he had to adjust to the fact that he actually has to start fighting to beat them. Because he was very strong chess-wise, but, these are big names and you have to fight them. Then he had to adjust to the situation that not everybody wanted to beat him because they respected him so much that they actually started playing very solid chess against him. And now he is a World Champion, so it’s going to be even different. He will have to use it to his advantage.
SS: Very interesting! Like how Magnus does everytime.
GG: Exactly, exactly. Magnus has scored so many wins just based on the fact that he is Magnus. So ideally, you can’t just win the games because you are the World Champion. You actually have to prove it and support it with the moves. So that’s what we are going to do.
SS: Amazing. And, you have done so much for Gukesh. He considers you not just his second or his coach, but a very close friend. Would you say this is the high point of your training career? am sure you also will achieve so much more in the years to come, but…
GG: It’s definitely the highest. I mean, my dreams came true as well, right? What better could there be for a chess coach than to have this kind of student? Actually, to be there with him and see him achieving all this, it’s just an amazing experience.
SS: Thank you so much for doing everything. I think Indian chess will witness a huge boom. I could already feel it back home - could sense it in everything. And perhaps, as you said, it’s the beginning of a new era of chess.
GG: Yeah, hopefully. Thank you so much!
